is this right???>?regarding harmonic/ melodic minor:

[spawn]

Originally Posted by frankus

The major scale and it's modes have a really nice symmetry when placed on the cycle of 5ths - a nice long line, the middle being on the 2nd degree of the scale:

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

.

question what key is that in?

please if you answer, dont say C

SEE!

[frankus]

Right.

You're possibly one of the first people to fail the Turin test, how does that feel?

[spawn]

Originally Posted by frankus

The major scale and it's modes have a really nice symmetry when placed on the cycle of 5ths - a nice long line, the middle being on the 2nd degree of the scale:

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

The melodic minor has a symmetry too:

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

But the Harmonic minor? Pah... no symmetry ... nada ... zilch.

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

Basically it's going to be the next refuge of schlepps who used the pentatonic for melody and then wanted something angular - pattern players if you will.

All the modes of the melodic minor can be seen as bridges of the modes of the major scale:

Lydian Dominant = Mixolydian + Lydian
Melodic Minor = Dorian + Ionian
Mixolydian flat 6 = Aeolian + Mixolydian

In each case take the modes altered note from it's nearest modal neighbour (if you don't know that work out the key centre for relative modes starting on C - C ionian, C lydian, C dorian etc) - the altered note from C dorian to C aeloian is the b6.

Pay attention this is interval vector matrix arithmetic - highly musical and easy to play on the guitar. All this shit about interval vectors is a nice way of covering up the fact you're playing patterns not musical notes.

we all share and use the same 12-notes, the way that you order and develop that order.. is, well-makes-you-....you..

[frankus]

Originally Posted by spawn

we all share and use the same 12-notes, the way that you order and develop that order.. is, well-makes-you-....you..

Incredible use of truisms there, but sadly no; what makes me me is the choice of musical notes based on the note selections of music I like - which I've listened to studied, practiced, incorporated, understood and extended.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by frankus

Incredible use of truisms there, but sadly no; what makes me me is the choice of musical notes based on the note selections of music I like - which I've listened to studied, practiced, incorporated, understood and extended.

you too, well so DO I, it is a small world after all.....


BTW... i was speaking in general about-truisms but, you felt that i was picking on you so
let me be the bigger man and say, I... well I....wont hold it against you when you say that you are sorry....

[Nik Harrison]

Originally Posted by frankus

The major scale and it's modes have a really nice symmetry when placed on the cycle of 5ths - a nice long line, the middle being on the 2nd degree of the scale:

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

The melodic minor has a symmetry too:

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

But the Harmonic minor? Pah... no symmetry ... nada ... zilch.

F# Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb

Basically it's going to be the next refuge of schlepps who used the pentatonic for melody and then wanted something angular - pattern players if you will.

All the modes of the melodic minor can be seen as bridges of the modes of the major scale:

Lydian Dominant = Mixolydian + Lydian
Melodic Minor = Dorian + Ionian
Mixolydian flat 6 = Aeolian + Mixolydian

In each case take the modes altered note from it's nearest modal neighbour (if you don't know that work out the key centre for relative modes starting on C - C ionian, C lydian, C dorian etc) - the altered note from C dorian to C aeloian is the b6.

Pay attention this is interval vector matrix arithmetic - highly musical and easy to play on the guitar. All this shit about interval vectors is a nice way of covering up the fact you're playing patterns not musical notes.

They are neither symettrical, nor palendromic. Unless you are discussing the interval patterns which generate scales, actually using the centre point of the scale which has no musical significance, and this symettry is largely coincidental, and immaterial.

[jalapeno]

(not really !)

[frankus]

Originally Posted by Nik Harrison

They are neither symettrical, nor palendromic. Unless you are discussing the interval patterns which generate scales, actually using the centre point of the scale which has no musical significance, and this symettry is largely coincidental, and immaterial.

Have a biscuit, Nik.

Originally Posted by Frankus

Pay attention this is interval vector matrix arithmetic

See that there? That's sarcasm... See this here?

Originally Posted by Nik Harrison

They are neither symettrical ... which has no musical significance, and this symettry is largely coincidental, and immaterial.

That's the sar-chasm

I love music theory in the same way I like Sudoku .. and I liken these kids tinkering with mathematical permutations and combinations of the chromatic scale or deciding to base all their music on a western analogue of an exotic scale to people trying to solve real mathematical issues using Sudoku.

Sudoku isn't really mathematics, it's logic using symbols that happen to be numbers; these people trying to find names for the modes of some dusty old scale noone gives a fuck about would be better off buying Wayne Krantz's Improvisers OS - where they're guaranteed that they'll play the same notes learn to recognise them and play over them rather than piece together a few pretensious sound-bites to cover their insecurities at the guitar shop... in short play it on the guitar then MAYBE figure out a name for it.

Jal, I can't really see the problem... posting stuff about this thread sucking... if it does, don't read it... what are you hoping for by registering your disapproval? You want it all to stop? Might help to say why you think it's wrong, you know contribute a little.

[jalapeno]

Originally Posted by frankus

Jal, I can't really see the problem... posting stuff about this thread sucking... if it does, don't read it... what are you hoping for by registering your disapproval? You want it all to stop? Might help to say why you think it's wrong, you know contribute a little.

I don't have a problem, you seem to enjoy taking the rise out of people, so right back atcha big boy !

And I did make a contribution, suggesting it's more important to hear the "outside" notes of major (etc) scales in context, musically rather than endlessly theorising about it in a soduko puzzle/Mornington Crescent kind of manner and was dismissed for mentioning the Major scale. But it looks like that the theory anorak-istas aren't interested in musicality ....

Oh and the Mike Stoner style irony wafted over your head I take it ?

[frankus]

Originally Posted by jalapeno

I don't have a problem, you seem to enjoy taking the rise out of people, so right back atcha big boy !

I do enjoy taking the rise out of people, I put a lot of time and effort into it I don't like off the cuff remarks .. it's like sex - I don't believe in casual sex; I say put your back into it or don't bother at all.

Originally Posted by jalapeno

And I did make a contribution, suggesting it's more important to hear the "outside" notes of major (etc) scales in context, musically rather than endlessly theorising about it in a soduko puzzle/Mornington Crescent kind of manner and was dismissed for mentioning the Major scale.

Yeah but that just means the person who said that is a muppet. Somehow people think taking an obscure scale and changing the starting point is somehow going to find them "The New Sound".. they don't seem to be aware of Vaughn Williams, when he had a cob-on, pulling out all that sort of stuff - besides he did it with an Orchestra not a guitar, over 50 years ago - that's different musical notes to the ones we use.

There's no mention of Slonimsky or Smith-Brindle or the like... and there's no sense of irony that metal (a major user of exotic scales) has possibly THE most predictable melodies on the planet and is possibly the most mired in traditions of tempo and harmony.

Few people bother to compose diatonically from an exotic scale as the meaning of the chords isn't going to be analogous with western music so you'd need to repurpose the chord sounds we've come to recognise - this isn't a bad thing but it requires a deftness of touch and it seems these guys are more about being the next Kirk than checking out Django Reinhardts experiments with harmonizations using the Hungarian Minor scale... to see if it's worth the hassle.

But even in all that, there must be some interesting stuff to be covered. I get fed up with these threads being blasted, if you want people to think theory is difficult OR to think theory doesn't have a place ... just keep registering your disapproval... but seeing as you know a fair amount of music theory and may well use tritone substitutions and the odd harmonic extension it might be worth defining what part you dislike