Constructive criticism required!

[WYNIR0]

On the evidence in this thread, I'm afraid you're both lamers.

[Whammyman]

Originally Posted by WYNIR0

On the evidence in this thread, I'm afraid you're both lamers.

Yes, me lord, but there were mitigating circumstances.

[Ten Flew South]

I'll see his admittance, and I'll raise none of me own

[paulnunn]

I think overall there is a really nice balance here-

However- There are some really poor synth choices aound the 3:00 minute breakdown mark that take away from the understated beauty of all the lines previously- and also sound a bit cheez-o- like Jan Hammer dated... The high end ice sounding pad... whatever it is... should go- or maybe be sent through some tape delay or de-constructed in one fashion or another...

I think the over all tone blend is good- but the mix keeps the best elements hovering at the back and not taking the focus they deserve- and as the track wears on it definitely becomes long enough that what starts as subtlety becomes an overall lack of movement...

Seems like the synth bass isn't so bad- but you might look at locking down the quantization in the areas where it picks up pace- maybe remove the odd transient for a better balance on the kick- I think this might improve overall perception of the bass tone itself... Which should really go through a bit of compression- maybe even bus the blended tones through the same compressor to see how the leveling sticks them together... the more the bass swallows the listener the better the balance of incoming parts will be...

Overall- of all the things I have listened to today, it is one of the better put together and I can easily see it in the after 4 A.M. set- more chill than club- but with a little editing down and some focus to the mix ( you work hard to write those parts- don't bury good work!) I think it could really be a pleasant piece of ear candy...

In case I am not clear- this was intended as positive feedback and constructive crit.... apologies if it came out any other way!

[Ten Flew South]

Hi Paul, all noted and taken on board, and absolutely no offence taken at anything you've said lol! I'm no wilting flower when it comes to crit, ther was just some overspill from another little 'discussion', hence the little altercation earlier in the thread.. oh well.

I got the track finished in a fairly small amount of time, so OD'd on it, but when I go back to it soonish I'm sure I will make most of the adjustments you have suggested, as everything you've commented on sounds right to me.

I'm a bit paranoid about my room acoustics now though as I played it at work and it sounded bloody awful, so not sure how balanced I can get it, this is about as good as my mixing goes for the minute, although it seems to be improving every week.
I'm still not that happy about the bass, it sounds a bit too hollow to me, would like to get a btter tone to it yes, and getting the bss and kick right is still very tricky, but need to re-record the bass anyway, I noticed the quantisation thing also, can fix that at the same time.
I've got another couple of tracks I'm working on, so when they are done I'll focus on getting all three mixed and produced as well as possible. Wouoldn't mind having a decent compressor and EQ, I'm sure they would make quite a bit of difference too, am saving up for a Liquid Mix, shouldn't be too long now.

Thanks for listening and for the comments, lots of good stuff to consider

[paulnunn]

for the record- I love my liquidmix and swear by those things- you won't regret it for a second...

[Ten Flew South]

That's good to hear! It's one of those bits of kit where you just know it's worth every penny.

One question about your comment on transients in the bass, do you mean that when I compress it again, that the attack should be faster to let the kick through more, and maybe ease off on the kick compression attack at the same time, or to duck it?

I'm not that keen on the ducking idea to be honest, I know it's good practise but it must be bloody difficult to get it right so that it's extremely subtle but still effective.

[paulnunn]

Well- I might play with it were it me. I think if you just lock some of those looser parts where the bass line isn't on the kicks pulse as much- with a little bit of warring compression settings on each you could let the mix sort of set itself here. I tend to vary between thinking the kick attack should be as quick as possible and then just use release and makeup gain to push it- and let the ratio control the dimensions or slowing the attack and setting release times so you get that punch/suck can sometimes really bridge timing gaps- and sometimes can make a great big mess of everything. I think the bass itself might benefit if you pushed it hard and side chained it to the kick so that on shared beats the kick came through a little harder and at the right place where it would actually enhance the bass- little quick ducks.

Bear in mind that I tend to think of compression in wildly fluctuating terms that range from "the great experimental destruction effect" to the "absolutely necessary sometimes I use warring settings to skip on riding faders." But I tend to think the best method is to acknowledge standards and practices- but most of all listen til it sounds right to your ears.

When I was listening though- my overall impulse would be to take all three- the two synth basses and whatever components are making the kick- tighten up the placement in key spots and then bus them all through a single compressor and experiment with what that does to the overall play between the elements. This might get scoffed at by certain folk- but it is a technique I really find useful to add in an almost organic sense of pumping to the low end- and having everyone on one bus starts bringing things up as others fall down. Perhaps automating this for various sections to raise and lower intensity...

Or maybe a combination of all of these things...

Maybe that's too much compression- but then again, seems to me like people who throw that around just need to get themselves better compressors!

So, after all of that, I guess what I am saying is that some sort of trick (and I agree on the ducking thing) where you let the competing signals fight it out in a sack full of compression might bring about a few spontaneous results and also a hint of organic energy in the deep end... Hope this wasn't a crap answer!

[Ten Flew South]

Originally Posted by paulnunn

let the competing signals fight it out in a sack full of compression

Lol! Like that one

Bass and kick compression isn't something I've spent a lot of time on, usually it's a case of finding a frequenct range where the kick sounds effective, and knocking a corresponding hole out of the bass, compressing them individually and leaving it at that, but I know if I want to get a proper 'pro' sound for the bottom end then I have to start investigating all these different techniques properly.
I also relied too much on the top end of the kick to give it its impact, whereas there should be a deeper layer doing a lot of that work I reckon.

This is the first track of mine where I only just started getting a handle on production, so I've got a long way to go, but the kind of reply that you gave is the kind of input I need now, whereas before I would have ignored most of that kind of advice because I didn't have the inclination to delve deeper, it's hard work especially as I'm still learning to write music too

But now it's the production side of things that are becoming more of a priority, and I'm enjoying it so it's all good.

Thanks again for the advice

[paulnunn]

I'm glad to contribute- mostly I love talking about this stuff. Compression is one of those things a lot of people don't talk about ( I think because the terms are less intuitive than delay/modulation effects - you can't just walk in and get it- so people are often unsure how they are even using it.) Moreover, most articles I've encountered tend to sport a touch of editorialism- so it takes about 5 solid articles just to get an idea of the priciples and inarguables that everyone agrees on... Yet, in my mind, compression is the great desert island effect because it can do so much more than just levelling- and even in inexperienced hands can be put to listenable use- kind of like guitar!
Craig Anderton has a handful of books that really helped me around the curve on a lot of stuff- and he's a pretty evenhanded writer as well- minimal static.
I started sequencing in the early nineties ( ten minutes before all the gear I was buying would be replaced by computers! ) as an attempt to re-approach what was then a pathetic and alarming lack of ability on guitar. The odd thing was- the more I focused on the production, the more I ended up learning about arranging and theory. Years and years and piles of gear later I may have no grammys- but I can certainly talk trash on a message board!